S6 E4: Being Enough - Exploring Perfectionism w/Dr. Ellen Hendriksen
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DR. ELLEN HENDRIKSEN (she/her) is a clinical psychologist who will help you calm your anxiety and be your authentic self. She serves on the faculty at Boston University's Center for Anxiety and Related Disorders (CARD) and is the author of HOW TO BE ENOUGH: Self-Acceptance for Self-Critics and Perfectionists as well as HOW TO BE YOURSELF: Quiet Your Inner Critic and Rise Above Social Anxiety.
Her scientifically-based, zero-judgment approach has been featured in The New York Times, The Washington Post, BBC News, New York Magazine, The Guardian, Harvard Business Review, Scientific American, O: The Oprah Magazine, Real Simple, Business Insider, Psychology Today, and many other media outlets.
Dr. Hendriksen earned her Ph.D. at UCLA and completed her training at Harvard Medical School. She lives in the Boston area with her family.
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Gerald and Alexis both view a lot of their work with individuals revolving around the idea of helping them more genuinely and confidently being themselves, which is in line with the titles of Dr. Hendriksen's book “How To Be Yourself” and “How To Be Enough”.
Society may feel like a battle between the camp of working endlessly and never feeling satisfied versus accepting yourself as you are; however, our podcast and this interview seeks to identify the middle ground and the nuances that exist between these two ideas.
Dr. Hendriksen talks about how she's seen many patients who do not initially recognize they have perfectionistic tendencies.
She talks about how perfectionism may be misinterpreted as always striving to be perfect but really its about never feeling good enough.
Gerald shares how psychotherapy is a great space to gain a language for what you are experiencing, which can feel grounding, normalizing, relieving, and provide a foundation to work with.
Dr. Hendriksen shares how it may look like a person is excelling when in reality they may be suffering through on the inside or privately.
Alexis shares how the phrase “they're just not reaching their potential,” without really being clear on what that means, which may imply signs of perfectionism but at an expense.
Dr. Hendriksen shares how similarly “I just want to be my best self” may imply an obsessiveness around fixing oneself.
Dr. Hendriksen shares how perfectionism can lead people to identify with what “we do” as if it's a character trait rather than identify with who we are.
Gerald discusses how exposure therapy relates to perfectionism in the sense of facing the fear of not overcompensating and realizing what actually happens through the experience, which can be scary and avoided initially.
Dr. Hendriksen shares that often not much changes in their life when they pull back but in fact they may feel better and simply be doing things with a different intention. With an all or nothing outlook, it can be difficult to imagine rolling back to any degree the over-doing.
Dr. Hendriksen shares how the over-doing steals the credit from the accomplishments.
Gerald shares that when you pull back from over-doing it, and you're more genuine, you can learn who actually appreciates you for who you are. This also reframes how relationships can be valued as much as success.
Dr. Hendriksen describes how admiration is different from acceptance and belonging. If we equate accomplishment with acceptance, then our acceptance will feel on the line every single time we try to do something, perform (“perform”), or achieve something.
Alexis shares how young people with social media may fall into the trap of always requiring acknowledge of doing something well. This can interfere with the individual self-regulating and giving themselves feedback along the journey of learning and growing.
Dr. Hendriksen talks about how perfectionists “move the goal post” and don't actually feel good after a brief burst of achievement. She suggests shifting the intention of getting feedback from “who likes it” to “did I do what I set out to do?”
Gerald shares how so much of perfectionism can be driven by fear instead of by intention and values, something Dr. Hendriksen alludes to her in book.
Gerald shares that while anxiety can motivate us to avoid failure, revolving our lives around fear can be debilitating in the long run… and even isolating.
Dr. Hendriksen talks about self-presentation perfectionism can lead people to come across as fake or phony or unrelatable.
Gerald shares how important for people with perfectionism to maybe for the first time more genuinely ask themsleves what is actually important and meaningful to them, what do they want to explore in life, etc, rather than just fixating on appearing perfect. Gerald discusses the importance of listening to your emotions as a guide rather than suppressing them in pursuit of some perfectionistic ideal. The emotions may help you to figure out what might be going astray in your life.
Dr. Hendriksen shares how in the literature there is no “perfect” definition of perfectionism. There are different views on the topic. She comes down to the idea of perfectionism being when people put performance demands on themselves that is beyond what is reasonable or expected in a given context. This suggests to not strive for excellence but to recognize when it's beyond what is expected. It's not to lower standards, it's to make them more appropriate or not lower standards at all (keep them high) but just leave room for mistakes and error that is inevitable. We can still make mistakes and meet expectations.
Gerald shares how people sometimes tell him “I'm not confident” but in reality they are confident, they are just afraid of making mistakes.
Alexis shares the moment in Ted Lasso when the fans almost showed compassion but quickly went back to dehumanizing him as a coach as an example of not allowing people to be human via perfectionism. She shares how even in the “failure” at different points in time can lead to excellence in the long run if we allow for the struggle.
Alexis also shares when we don't get feedback we may ruminate and make things up in our minds that leads to becoming self-critical.
Gerald shares how if we are afraid of making mistakes we may not be stretching ourselves or getting out of our comfort zones. It may prevent us from experiencing more of life. Gerald shares how songwriting is very much a metaphor for this process of experimenting until a great idea comes together.
Dr. Hendriksen suggests finding your own way to experiment and try different things you may be afraid of like doing an exercise class in private at first.
Gerald and Alexis share that when we have access to an infinite amount of information we may get paralyzed or assume we have to constantly improve or make things “better” or compare ourselves endlessly.
Dr. Hendriksen shares in her boom how being practical and allowing the context to guide our expectations of when something is “done” can help.
Dr. Hendriksen shares how there are so many experts online and on social media now that it can make it feel like we are never doing anything “right” or that there is a “right” way to do nearly everything.
Alexis shares how when we keep learning from experience, it leads to growing and excelling. Using a “beginner's mindset” from the area of mindfulness.
Dr. Hendriksen talks about doing something new and treating it like an experiment rather than as an exam.
Gerald shares how being present without self-consciousness oftentimes gives us the best chance to succeed. This is often true of athletes, as well. In fact there is literature suggesting that an outward focus (on their target or the task at hand) rather than an inward focus (on themsleves) helps athletes to perform their best.
Dr. Hendriksen shares how this outward focus in conversations can be fostered with practice and leads to more connection and less anxiety.
Gerald encourages people in power and leadership positions while interacting with others in real life to model and foster a sense of safety to not obsess over fear of making mistakes but to foster intentionality and connection.
Gerald and Alexis share how sometimes students or youth or anyone who is less outgoing and talkative may have a lot of insight to share if only they felt safe enough to share it. They may also assume that adults and others in their life are super human or flawless, which can lead to intimidation rather than empowerment and confidence.
Gerald shares how we sometimes need to give people permission to not feel perfect. He explains in therapy he may ask his patients “what do you think I'm thinking” as a way to highlight the persons assumption that they will be judged harshly.
Gerald shares his talk with the International Skating Union at the World Championships in Boston about the idea of always pushing limits and never checking in with one's needs (which may vary and change over time and across contexts), the athlete may burnout or get stuck without understanding why - and may even blame themselves. Perfectionistic tendencies can prevent us from understanding our needs and how we may simply need a different perspective, a different support, or anything really in times when we struggle, and just pushing through may not be the answer.
Dr. Hendriksen talks about self-compassion giving yourself permission to acknowledge your needs.
Dr. Hendriksen suggests we try to at least slightly separate our performance from our character.
Gerald suggests being more present during a task may lead us to not feel the urge to ruminate after the task because we felt intention in the moment and therefore like we did the best we could do.
Alexis shares how perfectionists often care so much about what they do and this book can be so validating and helpful.
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Gerald Reid 00:00
Welcome back to season six of the ReidConnect-ED Podcast. Today, we're thrilled to be joined by licensed psychologist Dr Ellen Hendriksen from the Center for anxiety and related disorders at Boston University. Ellen is a powerhouse in the field of understanding and treating anxiety. She has written a book about social anxiety, titled How to Be yourself, how to quiet your inner critic and rise above social anxiety, and most recently, a follow up book about perfectionism, which we can say is the sibling of social anxiety, titled How to be enough, self acceptance for self critics and perfectionists. These titles may seem simple, but they are powerful representations of what so many people are grappling with in life, whether they're in therapy or not. It's the journey of trying to learn how to be yourself and feel like you are enough, and after so many years of being entrenched in the field of mental health and education, Alexis and I, we really have to say that we wholeheartedly believe that so much of our work with individuals is exactly this process, how to help individuals more fully be who they are in a genuine way, and how to feel like they truly are enough as they are. And it may seem like society nowadays, teeters back and forth in a battle between two seemingly opposing ideas of whether we should fully accept ourselves as we are, versus this grind it out mentality and never feeling satisfied mentality. But as Alexis and I often share in this podcast, there's always nuance, because life is often not so black and white, all or nothing. We are so grateful to be bringing on Dr Ellen Hendriksen onto our podcast to discuss the nuance between these two extremes as we embrace the journey of life, and as I suggest in my new “Jerapy” song entitled “Mosaic,” the the idea is not to think of ourselves as the puzzle where the pieces have to fit perfectly together, but rather, we can see ourselves as a beautiful mosaic that comes together in a unique and meaningful way that makes life feel more fulfilling in the long run. Dr
Alexis Reid 02:09
Ellen Hendriksen is a clinical psychologist who will help you calm your anxiety and be your authentic self. She serves on the faculty at Boston University's Center for anxiety and related disorders card, and is the author of How to Be enough self acceptance for self critics and perfectionists, as well as how to be yourself quiet your inner critic and rise above social anxiety. Her scientifically based zero judgment approach has been featured in The New York Times, The Washington Post, BBC News, New York Magazine, The Guardian, Harvard Business Review, Scientific American Oh, The Oprah Magazine, real simple Business Insider Psychology Today and many other media outlets. Dr Hendriksen earned her PhD at UCLA and completed her training at Harvard Medical School. She lives in the Boston area with her family. Welcome, Ellen. We're so glad to have you here.
Ellen Hendriksen 03:12
I'm so glad to be here,
Alexis Reid 03:14
and I'm really, truly honored. I've worked with so many people from card across my career, and was directly influenced by so much that happened at card while Jerry was in training there too. So I'm glad that we're all here together to have this conversation.
Ellen Hendriksen 03:28
I know it's always nice to connect with other card folks, definitely.
Gerald Reid 03:31
And let me just give you a compliment, too. I was talking with Dr Jade Wu, who we also had on our podcast, talking about sleep as a sleep expert, and we were having a conversation maybe a few weeks ago, and she said, you know, Ellen was such an incredible mentor to me, and she really did so much to propel my own career. And so she was just so grateful for you and to me, you know, we always want to bring people on the podcast who really try to make a difference and try to have a positive impact on people's lives. So to hear that, and she was just so excited that, you know, you're going to be joining us as well. So she, she said so many great things about you as a mentor. Man,
Ellen Hendriksen 04:03
that's a blast from the past, because I was actually her supervisor for a while, and she just took such great initiative and had such an interest in writing and like getting her own message out, that she, she inherited the podcast that I founded called savvy psychologist when it was time for me to move on. And she just took it and ran it was amazing. And it's, it's been so cool to see her go from a student to really a full fledged colleague. And it's, I don't know, I'm just, I'm so excited for her. She's so great. That's
Gerald Reid 04:37
awesome. We love to do that. So Ellen, why don't we start this episode? Just, you know, what got you interested in researching and writing about the topic of perfectionism as it's in this book? Yeah.
Ellen Hendriksen 04:47
Well, you got me already. I always say, you know, I write these books for me. You know, I was interested. Well, okay, so I'm interested in. Perfectionism, certainly on a personal level, because it's something that has resonated for me for years, and I recognize myself in pretty much everything in the book, but also I borrowed it, also for a public reason at hard I see client after client where they'll come in and not necessarily identify themselves as perfectionistic. Nobody has ever said, you know, Ellen, I'm striving to be perfect. You know, I want everything to be perfect. Instead, what I see is folks who come in and say things like, I feel like I'm falling behind. I feel like I'm not reaching my potential. I have got a million things on my plate, and I'm not doing any of them well. And we can, you know, we can get into the the underlying constructs of perfectionism shortly. But just everybody who says things like this, often are struggling with perfectionism, whether they realize it or not. So I really have come to think over the years that perfectionism is a misnomer. It's not about striving to be perfect. It's really about never feeling good enough. And so many of us can identify with it when we turn it inside out in that way.
Gerald Reid 06:22
Yeah, that that is just so true. And I love what you're saying is that, you know, people come to you and you almost give them a language for what they're experiencing, or the ability to identify the under the underlying aspects of it. And I feel like, you know, at card, you do such a service in terms of the therapies you developed it to help people to have a language and really the psycho education to say, oh, that's what that is. Oh, I understand myself a little bit differently, and providing that in a very helpful educational way. Yeah,
Ellen Hendriksen 06:51
no, I think it can be such a relief to I mean, I've certainly experienced this myself when, like, I'll read a term that describes something I've been struggling with, and I'll say, oh, okay, that's very validating, because now that means that so many people have this problem that it has a name, and now it feels normal. Now it feels validating and like I'm just, you know, one of many people who are in this same boat. So yes, I love giving the name perfectionism or any of the constructs underneath it to people. And honestly, you know, the fact that so many people come in and are struggling with perfectionism makes sense, because everybody reacts to the situations we're put in. And so, you know, in an ever more competitive, ratings oriented, you know, optimization focused culture, if, you know, if we feel like there's no room for error, it really makes sense that we respond like feeling that we're not good enough. You know, even if we, this is one of my phrases, which I'll I might say again. But you know, even if we like on paper, you know, or from an outside perspective, might look like we're hitting it out of the park, we often like we're striking out. And just given the pressures of 2025 that makes total sense. It's so
Alexis Reid 08:05
tricky. And what you said earlier really resonated, because I work with so many families and educators alike who'll say, you know, so and so this student, or my child, just isn't reaching their potential. And it's so interesting, because it's the language that surrounds how we're guiding, supporting these developing young humans. And it's makes sense, right? We want people to reach their potential, but almost sometimes it's like, at what expense if we keep pushing that way? Yeah,
Ellen Hendriksen 08:32
absolutely. Yeah. The other phrase that I that kind of makes me, you know, prick up my ears, or makes my, you know, spidey senses activate, is I just would be my best self, it implies that just being oneself is not sufficient. You know, like, if we're not reaching our potential, as if there's some kind of a gap we can close, then that's not sufficient. So I really, yeah, I try to ask, like, Okay, what? What do you mean by that? Yeah, like, let's explore this. Yeah, and are you not allowed to have any gaps or any mistakes or any, you know, what, whatnot. That question, in
Alexis Reid 09:06
and of itself, is so brilliant too, because oftentimes, and I catch myself doing this for myself too, that oftentimes they're not even sure what that really means. It's just kind of like a catch all, right? Like, Oh, I just want to be my best self. And it sounds like what maybe other people might want to hear, very vague, yeah, but it's not really super specific. It's like, well, how do you achieve your best self? I don't know what that looks like. How do you get there, right, right? Yeah,
Ellen Hendriksen 09:32
no. And I think the, I think the word I mean, I think semantics are important. And so I think the word that we're using here are really important. Like, how do you achieve your best self, like that implies that our achievements, that our performance, is what defines us as sufficient. And that segue, you know, like is, is the heart of perfectionism. It is this idea that we are what we do. Right, and that, you know, and we can when we think of people who are, you know, I'm putting this in air quotes for real listeners, like perfectionists, like we often think of high achievers, like people who like to do achieve, who get good results, who maybe are a little bit type A. And it can be that, but really it's also, as you know, we're trying to broaden the definition here. Anyone who's trying to answer this universal human question of, Am I, okay, you know, am I by looking at what we accomplish and that that conflation of performance with our goodness as a person is really at the heart of it. So, forgive my grammar, but it's when I do good. I am good. When I do bad, I am bad. I love that. I love that. So true.
Gerald Reid 10:47
Alexis told me not to put my professor hat on, but I'm gonna go into this because I think conceptually, this is something that people don't always grasp onto, and it's very much related to what you're what you're saying is when you're saying. Center for anxiety is based on the idea of exposure therapy and exposure being you're going to do something different that you're afraid to do because you feel like something bad will happen if you don't do it. And so it's, you know, it's wonderful that you know that that idea is there because so much of as you you said this in your book too, that, and I see this all the time, is that people who are perfectionists feel like, if I don't do x, y, z, it won't be like, there will be, there will be negative consequences that will happen, right? That. And you said something so interesting is that sometimes the perfectionistic patients you work with, when they pull back this over compensating or trying too hard or doing too much, that in fact, nothing really changes that much in their life. And in fact, they might actually feel better. And to me, that is the essence of exposure therapy is to kind of take that armor off of the perfectionistic display to everybody, take that armor off and see, actually, everything's okay. And things might actually feel better along the way as well.
Ellen Hendriksen 12:10
Yeah, and, but it can. It can take some real convincing to try to get to the point of rolling back, yeah, over compensation, over preparing, you know, over, over anything. A lot of people with, you know, I certainly have found myself in this category. You know, myself, but you know, might show up overdressed and be overly friendly and like be overly attentive and overly enthusiastic, because we think that is what's going to get people to like us, or it's the correct thing to do. And so the idea of rolling back the over compensation oftentimes, because perfectionism is really all or nothing, people are are wondering, wait a minute, if I don't over prepare, are you saying that I should just wing it, or if I am not being, like overly friendly and sort of socially performing, does that mean does that mean I'm supposed to just kind of sit in the corner like a lump, or that I'm allowed to be rude to people, right? And I need to clarify. No, no, no, we're not. We're not doing a 180 we're not. We're not, you know, flip flopping all the way from over compensation to like, you know, I don't care about anything. We're just going to roll back the over preparation or over performing, or over whatever, to simply preparing or simply being friendly, like it's it's the over compensation that is the problem, and also that's what steals the credit when we're safe, you know, when people are nice to us, when we get the results. We want that that over compensation is what gets the credit. And so we think we have to keep on doing that. And so it can take a lot of convincing to ask people to just do a behavioral experiment, do an exposure, let's roll it back and and see what happens. And it can be quite magical when when that moment comes, but getting there can be fraught with a lot of emotion and fear of consequences. Yeah,
Gerald Reid 14:00
that's so true. And it's almost like a visual, like, I've used the visual of a spectrum, like, over compensating and completely doing nothing. And like, kind of using that visual of it's on a spectrum, and you're, you're thinking it's going to go from, as you said, one to the other. And it's interesting too, because, as you're saying, when you are yourself more, you can actually learn who actually likes you too, like genuinely likes you, which, if you value relationships, and if that, we can kind of reframe what's important in life as relationship as much as success. You can begin to actually understand who your quality relationships are. Because you can't really know, as you're saying, if you think people are just kind of, you know, fawning over your accomplishments or thinking that's who you are, right?
Ellen Hendriksen 14:42
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I took a lot of in the book about how admiration is different than acceptance, right? Like that's good, like we might be, like our accomplishments, or the, you know, the over compensation, the high. And personally demanding standards, you know, probably by us a lot like, you know, I not to put too much of myself in here, but, you know, I certainly sort of was a grade grubber, you know, I I certainly put a little too much stock in an accomplishment growing up. And so I think a lot of the positive regard that I got from that I gave the credit to my accomplishments, that that was the reason that I had, you know, that people seem to like me, or, you know, respected or admired me. And I really am trying to, yeah, separate out. The idea of accomplishment and admiration is different than acceptance and belonging and so because, but also because, if we think that, you know, if we're a little bit over identified with our accomplishments, then our worth is never a settled question. And every performance, you know, every time we have our accomplishment, is on the line, whether that is okay now I have to answer this question in class, or I have to give a presentation at work, or we, I don't know this can be so variable, like we look at the number on the scale, or an athletic performance, or a musical performance, or a social behavior, Like every time there's a, again, quote, unquote, performance becomes sort of a test, and we pass it if we reach our personally demanding performance standards. But if we, if we fail, if we don't reach those, then, then that means something about us, right? It becomes, it becomes personal perfectionism is a, is almost a test of character. So our work is never a settled question. Yeah,
Alexis Reid 16:42
yeah. I spend so much time in schools, observing students of all ages, and then I work one on one, also in private practice of again, students across the board, from elementary to graduate students and beyond. I think we're all learners all the time. We're always learning. But you know, I think a lot about the context and how it shifted and changed over the years, right from when we were students, where we might have gotten, you know, some reinforcement from positive feedback around doing well, to nowadays, where, you know, social media, especially young, young kids, are only seeing, You know, the end result, these big ideas, these big accomplishments, being celebrated in such a public way that I think it's really difficult. I've been grappling with this too, so I'm kind of throwing it out there for us to talk about. You know, if I'm finding it very difficult for young people especially, to self regulate, you know, to give themselves feedback to be able to navigate through challenges of even maybe not getting acknowledged for something they feel like they're doing well, or feeling like they always need to get that big feedback for even doing the smallest thing that it's difficult for them to internalize it. And when I read your book and when I like observing and listening to you both kind of go through more of the clinical lens of perfectionism. I'm thinking a lot too about how you know what this might look like in practice, especially for young people, who I've been seeing more and more often, are getting more rigid in their thinking, which often comes out as perfectionism, because it becomes black and white, and feedback is such a nuanced in interesting thing that I don't know if we're processing very well, just because of the context for which we often get and interact with feedback.
Ellen Hendriksen 18:38
Yeah, oh, man, that. Yeah. We could. We could. How much time do we have about this one? Oh, boy. Okay, yeah, I think there's, I think there's a couple of things there. So one is that I think we sort of absorb, through the culture, this idea that we can make ourselves happier through good performance and doing things well, you know, if I do X, X, X, or if I achieve whatever, whatever, I'll be happy. And what often happens is that, you know, when we achieve a goal, you know, or, yeah, get the feedback we want. Or you mentioned social media, like, maybe I don't know, people like our post, whatever we feel good in the moment. But then we move goal posts, you know, we decided was insufficiently demanding in the first place, and then we set a more personally demanding goal. And then the cycle starts. Cycle starts again. It's like chasing
Alexis Reid 19:24
that dopamine of rush of like, oh yeah. That was great, yeah. Now anymore,
Ellen Hendriksen 19:29
yeah. And the second thing that you were when you were talking that sparked a thought, is that I'll work with and I had, you know, I had to work on this myself. Certainly is that it's a it's, how do we know when our work, or, you know, whatever we are valuing is good? And so often, the answer is, because people like so like, it's I really liked for work with clients on like, how else could we measure in. Know, is this good? And the answer that I've landed on for myself with my writing, or, you know, just other things I'll put out into the universe, the universe is, it's it's good if I fulfilled my intention, yes, I did set out to do, then I know it's good, and then that that is something that I can control and that I have power over, and I'm not outsourcing the quality of this, whatever it is I'm putting out into the world, to the opinions of other people, which is something I can't control. So it's like subjectivity
Alexis Reid 20:32
and objectivity, right? Yeah,
Ellen Hendriksen 20:35
exactly, exactly. That's so well said, trying to find another way besides, it's good because people liked it, or it's bad because not enough people liked it. Well, that's great.
Gerald Reid 20:45
And you know, you talk so much in your book about, you know, following your values and letting that guide you and being intentional. And I think, as you alluded to earlier, and we're talking about the people you work with, is that with perfectionism, everything is driven by fear and that not that might not be acknowledged by by and by the way, like so many people, are perfect, I appreciate us all kind of acknowledging that we all struggle with it because it's, it's pretty much like universal at this point.
Alexis Reid 21:12
Can I share too? I was at the the Council for Exceptional Children conference, CEC conference last week, and I did a presentation with a couple 100 people and and I basically was saying, like, perfectionism is all of us. If you're in education, if you're in mental health, oftentimes we all want to just be the best we can be, right? I'm like, we're I'm preaching to the audience whenever I mention anything related to executive function and perfectionism, because, you know, there's a reason you get to the top of your game. You have to kind of sacrifice and work hard and keep striving, yeah,
Gerald Reid 21:43
and it's just, you know, it's the fear. The fear is exhausting, too, and I think it's hard. It's when people, when we kind of acknowledge that the fear is actually doing us more harm than good, right? You know, we always talk about anxiety drives you. It motivates you. We need anxiety to motivate us. Because we shouldn't be afraid of, you know, in some degree we should be afraid of failure, to at least motivate us to avoid that, but at the same time, as you're saying, We can't revolve our lives around that, because it's exhausting and it's not fulfilling, and it's always going to be disappointing in the long run, and even isolating, you know? And
Ellen Hendriksen 22:17
Right, right? Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought up the word isolating, because, yeah, I think that gets us into perfectionistic self presentation that, you know, perfectionism isn't just about like the thing we're working on, you know, it's also about how we present ourselves overall, and when we, you know, only show what's going well and we hide, you know, our struggles or our problems or what's going poorly. You know, it makes sense. We're trying to we're trying to keep ourselves socially safe. We're trying to keep ourselves safe, you know, criticism and rejection or judgment. But then, but when we only put our best foot forward and we hide the mess, then we, we come across as sort of like, either phony or unrelatable or sometimes intimidating, and that, you know, keeps us isolated and disconnected. I have a client who, you know is, is is really working on this really hard. I appreciate her, her work, and she, she, she's, she's a very attractive woman, and will work really hard to maintain that. But has also found that amongst her friends, it sort of puts her on an island and so like when so for her, like her, her value is sort of wrapped up in how she presents, uh, physically, but then it also separates her from from the very people that she's trying to protect herself from, like, their judgment. So, you know, it's what, essentially, that's what I mean when I say that perfectionism. You know, we often think of it as a personal problem, but really it's an interpersonal problem, because, like, when we're sealer, we're separate, or when we're when we're like, on a pedestal, we're alone. So I think it's a it's, I'll often hear clients say it's like a double edged sword, sort of like, you know, I am not like everybody else, and then also, yeah, I'm not like everybody else. There's this idea, there's this sense of being separate and being a little bit proud of that, but also feeling really isolated by that.
Gerald Reid 24:23
Absolutely, yeah, and it's so important to kind of help people that maybe for the first time, consider what is important to you. What do you want to explore in life? What do you want? What are your other interests? We were doing a documentary about a college basketball coach who basically said, you know, it was modeled for me to just only hyper focus on being a basketball coach and have no other interests and just be the best possible, you know, person in basketball that you can be. And it just took a toll right when you you know, you don't have any other ability to kind of introspect about what is important. Word and what is the connection that you're really looking for could also end up in it can also lead people to end up in relationships that they don't even want in the first place, but they don't realize it until they kind of like something bad happens. And I've had a lot of patients where it's like, well, let's, like, learn from this. Why did the relationship not work? Why? Why are these problems happening? And how can we tap into listening to your emotions? And I think with perfectionism, there's like, a, maybe not a paying attention to your emotions. And I love the emotion focused idea that if we can listen to our emotions, it's actually helpful, that it's telling us something important, and we can pay attention to that and see, wait, that means that there's something I should pay attention to and address it rather than pushing it away and say, Oh no, I just keep drudging through, keep judging, keep fighting through, keep being perfect, because I can't listen to those emotions. They're going to get in the way of success or achievement. And in fact, those emotions could actually guide you in terms of how to navigate what's going
Ellen Hendriksen 25:55
on. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, I think in then also, I think the just, yeah, to get back to the you meant, you mentioned the basketball coach, I think there also it that his statements imply that he could earn his way into people's good graces through being the best basketball coach. Where, again, that's sort of like performance as earning love community and belonging, and so often just trying to shift from putting all our eggs in the proverbial basket of performance and trying to shift it over to like, connection, or, you know, enjoyment, or to your to your later point, yeah, emotion like, what else can we focus on, as opposed to just our performance?
Alexis Reid 26:49
Definitely. So I'm going to actually ask both of you to put your professor hats back on for a moment, because I think we should roll it back a little bit if you were to operationalize and define what perfectionism is. How would you define it?
Ellen Hendriksen 27:06
So, okay, I this is, there's a back story here. We need
Gerald Reid 27:10
the perfect definition.
Ellen Hendriksen 27:16
Like, you know, dig into the literature. Like, I, you know, I, I'm a big nerd like I am happy to, you know, read papers all day long and and there was not a perfect definition. There are, you know, a number of research camps, and I find it delightfully ironic that perfectionism researchers can't agree on perfect definition of perfectionism. So there's, there's controversy about, like, is it ever good? Is it only bad, you know, is it like, multi dimensional? Is it clinical? You know? Anyway, so neither here nor there. I'm a pragmatist, and so I, you know, essentially, okay, so the definition that I like to use is that it's a tendency to demand of oneself a level of performance higher than required for the situation. I love that. I like that. I like that one because you can see it both ways. You can, okay, require, like, demand of oneself a level of performance higher than is required for the situation. Cool, please keep doing that. That's great. That means you'll probably get it out of the park, that'll get you really far. Like, yes, definitely that, you know, go the extra mile. Wonderful. Like, that's that can be good, but demanding of oneself, a level of performance higher than is required for the situation can also backfire. Then we get into the over compensation. Then we get into, yeah, like trying to just keep pushing, even if the evidence, you know, is to the contrary, even if it makes us isolated. So I really like that that definition can go either way, because it speaks to how you might not even really have if we're trying to address perfectionism, might not have to do anything like behaviorally differently, but just to change sort of the undercurrent. And a story I like to tell, which I think bears repeating, is I was working with a college student, and in the book, I call him Carter, and he was really concerned with maintaining his idea of being smart. And he said, okay, if I'm smart, there's certain things I have to do. I have to, you know, study for a really long time. I have to, like, make sure I know this material inside and out so I don't look stupid like I can't ask dumb questions that show that I don't know what I'm doing. Okay. And so he was really stuck on trying to maintain this label and this image of smart. And so we worked together to try to shift him over from the rule of I have to be smart or I have to look smart, to the value of. Am interested in learning. I will run towards learning because I find it, you know, interesting or meaningful or purposeful. And there that's, that's much more freeing, that's, that's not a should, that's a want. And on the surface, he didn't really change much at all. He still studied really hard, you know, he still studied for a long time. He still knew the material inside and out, but it was the quality of the experience really shifted, because he was able to run towards those values, as opposed to having to maintain this label out of fear. And it was so cool to see. So I love that story
Alexis Reid 30:38
in the book, and that really hit me, because I work with a lot of college students, and I always find it so interesting. Jerry and I talk about this all the time, because, you know, we're in Boston, and Boston University and all you know, Northeastern, Harvard, MIT, like all these really great universities, are right here. So we have some really bright students who often cross our paths, and it's not often that they're not capable or qualified to be a student at these universities, but often it's that they don't think they are good enough to be there at different times. And what you just said is so striking, because We frequently talk about how when we don't have an experience in a context yet and we're not really sure how to perform and how to show up, that can elicit so much fear, which oftentimes can kind of flip the switch, in my opinion, into that perfectionistic mode where, like you just feel like you have to do everything because you're not really sure how to show up.
Gerald Reid 31:36
And there's a really important point that you really emphasize in the book Ellen, and that is essential to how I work with people, is that I have seen that sometimes the athletes I work with, or people who like they'll say, I'm not confident, and then I'm like, wait a minute. I know you, you're confident. It's not that you're not confident, it's that you're afraid to show your vulnerability and to make a mistake. And those are two very different things. Those
Ellen Hendriksen 32:04
are really, really different. Yeah, no, so okay, I'm really glad you're steering the conversation this way, because I, I would like to shout from the rooftops that the the sort of status quo of working with perfectionists seems to off. Sometimes I will hear the advice of, well, you have to lower your standards or to stop when things are good enough. And you know, as a recovering perfectionist, and having worked with perfectionist, you're
Alexis Reid 32:35
in good company. Me too. Yeah, that that
Ellen Hendriksen 32:37
brings up a lot of affect and a lot of fear and like, worry about consequences of, like, wait a minute, like, especially if we're sort of over identifying or over evaluating our performance, whether, again, this could be a million different things. It could be our grades, it could be our, you know, work evaluation, it could be the number on the scale, it could be the, you know, our social performance, it could be our parenting anyway. And so if we're sort of over evaluating ourselves as well as, like, like, what we what we do is who we are, then saying you need to lower your standard is never going to go over well, because if we settle for subpar, mediocre performance, that means we are subpar, mediocre. So I so just like it in your story about, like, wait a minute, you're confident. You just don't want to make a mistake. It's like, okay, yeah, the high standards, yeah, are not the problem. You don't need to lower your standards. But let's, let's make some room for the inevitable mistakes that happen. Let's give you some breathing room, a little bit of buffer that's different than lowering your standards. Yeah, okay, it's good enough. We're gonna keep on shooting for the stars, but we'll add in, like, okay, here, this is another story I tell, but again, Bear was repeating. So I was working with a pediatrician, and she misdiagnosed a little girl who came in, she thought, she thought she had constipation. Turns out it was appendicitis and soul. Girl ended up having to go to the emergency room. She was fine, like everything was fine. But my, my client, came in and was just picking herself, and so I under, you know absolutely I understand her, her regret and her disappointment in it herself, but she was saying things like, maybe I should get my head examined. I should retire early, like I'm a doctor, like self criticism. And I would argue that it would not be appropriate to say to a doctor, you know, or a pilot or, you know, to lower your standards, right? Yeah, she's gonna, she's gonna keep, she should keep on aiming for correct diagnoses, like serving her patients as well as she can. But there are going to be inevitable mistakes. They're going to be inevitable this diagnosis. And so we worked on again, rather than this, all or nothing, of like, okay, over a 25 year career, if you had a colleague you know who had a career like yours, what for. Percentage of the time would you reasonably assume that they make a misdiagnosis and the answer can't be zero, and honestly, it doesn't really matter what the answer is, as long as it's a non zero answer. Because that even just the difference between no mistakes and like 1% mistakes is huge, because if we if we aim for no mistakes, and then that means there's this very narrow criteria for success, like we can we only are okay if we are consistent, if our bar for adequate is set at flawless, and then every time, then there's this huge gulf for failure. You know, if we define failure as not meeting expectations, then every time we screw up, blam that. That sends us into into nothing, slash failure territory. So all we need is a little bit of buffer, a little bit of wiggle room to allow ourselves some mistakes, and then it doesn't shoot us from all to nothing. We can just chalk that up as well. There is my quota. No,
Alexis Reid 35:54
it's brilliant. I love that. And again, it's making things more concrete. And I often say, like, we can't out, think we can't, like over cognate all of the things that we think are happening like it actually doesn't change anything. It just kind of drives us in circles in our own head. And I'm laughing as we're talking about this, because I started re watching TED lasso the first season. Anyone who's familiar with Ted lasso, he's a coach that comes from America over to the UK to coach a soccer team, which he's he doesn't know anything about soccer. And in the very beginning few episodes, you know, a lot of it is about making mistakes. And there was one part where the fans were just angry at him for just being somebody who doesn't know anything about soccer, right? And there's one part where the fans are all yelling, and one of the guys goes, Yeah, but you know, maybe he's just having a hard day, like he humanized them, and literally, the rest of the guys go, don't humanize him. Don't humanize him. He's just the guy we don't like. But I think in our heads, we don't go back to that idea of humanity, that we are human and make mistakes, right? That there's going to always be, like, a percentage of error that we can expect and anticipate. And, you know, in my head, and I keep going back to my educational training and thinking about even Montessori had in the Montessori pedagogy in the classrooms that we very much set up the environment to be supportive of all different types of learning, all different levels, all different mistakes. And you know, I worked in a Montessori classroom for several years here in Back Bay, and a wonderful school here. And you know, first of all, I had a little card on my cabinet that said, you know, even if you shoot for the stars, even if you miss, you'll you'll land. Shoot for the moon, even if you miss, you land among the stars. Thank you, but you made me think of that too, that like we have to just encourage this idea that there are always going to be different points that we can reach that might not be what we expect, but they might actually give us more value than we even anticipate. And then this idea in the Montessori classroom that I alluded to a moment ago is that there's this control for errors that we can always check against something to determine how we're doing, which brings back to the concrete that you're talking about, a more measurable idea of how we're actually doing, instead of falling into the all or nothing mentality that I wish we had more of just in our day to day lives, like from a social perspective. And maybe we'll take a moment to pivot to social anxiety, because both of you are experts on that too. Because, you know, especially for young people who live a lot of their lives in a digital reality, whether it's in video gaming or in social media, where they get a lot of feedback. That's very concrete. But if you're walking down the street, say, in Boston one day as a new college student, will just say you're not getting feedback of like, oh yeah, you're walking in the right direction, or Yeah, I like your outfit, or yeah, you seem like a good person. Like, we're not, as humans, getting that information to help us figure out where to go, which can very much lead us back into our minds, where we're trying to overthink and out think ourselves, to figure out what to
Gerald Reid 39:07
do, or feedback that it's okay to make a mistake. That's you. And like, if we are so afraid of making mistakes, we're probably not challenging ourselves actually. And I think that might be a nuance here too. Is that, like, if you're not actually making mistakes, you're probably kind of just staying within a very tight lane of what you're how you're kind of doing things and and maybe missing out on life experiences. And that kind of gets into that values thing. I learned this a lot from songwriting, because it's the song like writing songs like the thing evolves. I have no idea where it's gonna go. I just had to be open to it and maybe make a mistake or do something that doesn't work, but just being okay with that is actually where the art comes from. It doesn't come from me trying to, like, make a perfect song, because that this doesn't work that way. And I think a lot of life is like that. Yeah,
Ellen Hendriksen 39:53
no, I for the book, I interviewed a woman named Tricia Park, and she. She was a child prodigy violinist, and, you know, still, still is a is a violinist, has a very successful career, but she decided that she wanted to, she wanted to work on her own perfectionism, and so signed up for Fiddle Camp, and she said it went horribly wrong, because, like she had, she'd been classically trained and, like, had never really allowed herself to, like, improvise or like, jam with other people. And she said it was, it was unequivocally awful. And she but, but over time, she figured out that, you know, one like, quote, unquote wrong note might be a wrong note, but if you deliberately repeat it over and over, then it can be part of a new rhythm. It can be part of a new pattern and like that, you know, that can build into something that is, you know, a new song so or a chance to connect, which I thought was really profound, that goes with your musical analogy. But yes, a lot of folks that I work with will only take safe risks, like, they will have, you know, reached their personally demanding goal of running a marathon. But then once they've done that, they'll say, Okay, well, now I have to do it again and run it three minutes faster, you know, like, it's as opposed to, like, Oh, I'm going to try something that I've either always been interested in, or I might be bad at or I might have to learn in public. Yeah, I think, you know. And if in and if trying something on your own in private, because you're worried about what people will think of you is, if that's what gets you to try it, totally fine. There's no moral judgment on that. Like, if you have wanted to try yoga, but don't want to go to a yoga class, like, sure do it in front of YouTube, whatever. That's, that's totally cool. I think it's, it's, we don't have to flail in public, but I think to get to be aware of, like, what is in the way of me trying things that I might find genuinely interesting or fun, and if that is, you know, fear of judgment or criticism. Yeah, now we're now, we're straddling perfectionism and social anxiety here.
Gerald Reid 42:06
I don't know that's great Alexis. Alexis, too was talking about earlier, and they're gonna relate this to what you just said, is that like when we have access to some so much information, we can feel like we can just make everything that much better, that much better, that much better, because we have instant ability to just get more more more with the internet and just the way things are. And so you wrote an interesting story about Bruno Mars, which is really cool. We just interviewed the producer here at the studio who produces my music. We talked about just producing a song, and he said something that's exactly what your book says, is sometimes you just have to be practical and use the context to make a decision, rather than your perfectionistic, idealistic standards of, how is this going to be the best song? But rather in the context of what we're doing, what makes sense to just make it work, right? And that story about Bruno Mars that you shared was really cool, and I think people generally like him. Stuff you want to mention that? Yeah,
Ellen Hendriksen 43:00
yeah, absolutely no. I So, yeah, I guess Bruno Mars is, is, you know, a classic perfectionist. Okay, so, yeah, okay, so Bruno Mars is a is a classic, you know, is perfectionistic, and for his follow up to Uptown Funk 24 karat magic. He felt a lot of pressure to get it right, and a reporter from Rolling Stone sat in with him in the studio as he worked on it and went through 1920 editions, and he just kept on polishing and polishing and polishing. And his producer, I think it was said, Yeah, I've never seen anyone be, you know, so perfectionistic about literally anything, but, but at the same time, I appreciate his showmanship, because even like it's so the quality is really high. His perfectionism works in that sense. But clearly he's also having fun, you know, clearly he's also connecting with other people. So I don't know, I think we talked earlier about, you know, whether perfectionism can be adaptive or is always maladaptive, but maybe, maybe in some cases, a lot. Bruno Mars, yeah, it can. It can definitely get you a long way for sure, and you can have some enjoyment and connection along with it. I think that comes,
Alexis Reid 44:46
I think that's such a prevalent theme in the lives of people who do really great work right, that they're constantly trying to make it just right. And I don't know if you have this experience in writing, I recently just published the book, and it took many. Years for us to get to the point where we were done, right? So I Oh, thank you. I very much. Am aware of my own perfectionistic tendencies, but I will also share, because I wonder if it resonates with you or any of our listeners that you know a lot of the process was I kept improving in my own work, so it was hard for me to say, Okay, this is done. Let's get it out there, because I kept improving my own practice, my own craft. And I'm like, Oh, this can be tweaked. This can be improved, which it could have and, you know, there's a deadline. There's only so much time you could work on one thing. And I think it's, it's tricky, because, again, to your point chair. We were just mentioning that we're inundated with so much information that we're constantly learning. And if you're an aware, in tune person, that can sometimes become overwhelming, which probably feeds into the perfectionism. I'm wondering your thoughts on that? Yeah,
Ellen Hendriksen 45:55
no, absolutely. I had the same experience with Yeah, this last book. And then when I when I go back and I read parts of the first book, I'm like, Oh no. Now I know this. I wish I put that in there. Yeah. So for sure, we're always, you know, trying to, we're always evolving and updating and so, yeah, given the context of a book deadline or, you know, like a contract or something, we just have to say, Okay, it's, it's functionally done. I think. So sorry to be just all over the place, but I feel like, because you mentioned so much information coming at us, and I think that the another form that can take is especially with social media. There are so many or books, you know, I put myself in this category, but there's so many like experts out there, whether it's like, this is how you raise a child, or this is how you, you know, eat a cupcake. I saw a tick tock. The other wrong. Do that all wrong? Yeah, or just like, here's how it's from, you know, it's from, like, how to make the best charcuterie board, to like, you know, how to live your life like it's, it's just this gamut of like, we're, apparently we're all doing it there. I think the rise of experts, though, especially through social media, sends us this message of, well, you know, a you're doing it wrong, and so that's not good enough. Or whatever you're doing needs to be optimized. Like it's not good that you but, or it's not sufficient that you do it because you like it, or because you have fun doing it with other people, it has to look like this. Or, yeah, there's no room for mistakes. Or you have to do it well the first time, it has to be effortless. And I have two teenage boys and have really seen sort of the effects of social media on them, especially when they try to replicate cooking videos that they see like they're trying to make
Alexis Reid 47:52
your teenage boys are cooking and replicating
Gerald Reid 47:56
that, I'll tell I mean,
Ellen Hendriksen 48:00
I have a lot of sports hands as a result, but, but it's great, but, yeah, no that I yeah, they have, they have these great little hobbies and and and so. But they'll, they never come out looking like the video, right? Like they'll try to emulate like a, like a Zach Choi video or something. It never looks like that. And so we've tried to institute the phrase first pancake in our house. I love that. Like, it's you have to build in struggling or learning or figuring, like the runway before you take off. And so I like that that has been helpful to help them buffer like, why doesn't this look like? But the expert, you know, has posted online, which probably is the 100th you know, attempt, why doesn't, why doesn't mind look like the like, like that the first time. But I think if we multiply to that over, you know, all sorts of like, not just cooking, but all sorts of you know, things, then, yeah, it makes sense that none of us feel adequate.
Alexis Reid 49:06
You said the word update. It made me think of especially for our younger listeners, you'll probably relate to this like the iPhone. How many updates there are in upgrades and obviously, like they're trying to make money, right? But also, there are little tweaks and improvements that they're making along the way that they feel like they could put out something new. So maybe we're just constantly updating, and that process and journey, as we always say, is maybe enough,
Ellen Hendriksen 49:30
yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it's important to see the updates as progress, as opposed to exceed on this state. Yes, yeah.
Gerald Reid 49:40
Question. In the context of the many things people could cook, how did the food turn out to taste good?
Ellen Hendriksen 49:49
Yeah, no, that's great, yeah, because it's not just how it looks, right? Yeah, exactly. It's like, how does this taste? What is your experience like? Does the kitchen smell amazing, you know? Or like, did you have fun with your brother? You know? Yeah, for sure. For sure, they make all sorts of things and say, Oh, some, some of them
Gerald Reid 50:05
are experimentation.
Ellen Hendriksen 50:08
That's the point. It's okay to have a range about Yeah.
Gerald Reid 50:11
It's like, oh, we talk about songwriting. You gotta write a bunch of terrible songs. That's the process. That's
Alexis Reid 50:17
true. You know, it's so interesting, and I'm really grateful to the curricula and the teachers who are integrating mistakes and creativity into a lot of what they do in the classroom, and I think they both see and appreciate the benefit of it, and also are a little bit fearful that they're not meeting the quote, unquote, expectations of what you know, the administration or society or telling them they need to do. But I, I just want to say it on record that like making these mistakes, actually going back and giving yourself feedback to figure out how to improve, like that actually is the work that leads us to become more engaged, learners, less fearful, more, you know, open to challenges. I talk, we did an episode, actually, Ellen on fear this season, and I put myself in the shoes of a patient, and I said, you know, when, when I went skiing, I was feeling some fear, and I had to pull myself back and think about, well, how can I expose myself to little parts of the fear leading to what I was going to do and what I chose. And I actually chose to take a beginner's mindset and say, pretend I know nothing, and let me see what I learn in this situation as it's a different context, a different situation, and see if anything could be gained from that. Instead of like, Oh, I know what I need to do, this is what I need to do to make it the best experience ever, and going from there. So it's really interesting when you know this is why I love CBT and the work you both do so much in your practice and your work that it's about shifting our mindset. Because oftentimes that shift in how we think about things can totally transform an
Ellen Hendriksen 51:55
experience, right, right? Yeah. If so, yeah, I have a chapter in the book that tries to help us shift from like, this is a test, like, like, let me see, okay, like, how well can I do this? And then that says something about me in return. So trying to shift from this is an exam to this is an experiment. Like, let's see how this let's, let's try for the first pancake. Let's, you know, let's, let's just experience this. I talked to a journalist from Oprah daily, and she had a great example and wonderful phrasing, which is why I remember she says that she is trying to teach herself, to learn how to knit, and as a recovering perfectionist, she often finds herself like sucked into like this doesn't look good, you know. And her phrase was, my my knitting looked like an ungroomed golden doodle and and she said, But you know, I'm trying to like, deliberately shift over to like. I'm trying to express my creativity. I'm trying to learn something new. I'm trying to experience this or like. I'm going to find, I know from experience that I find the like kind of the click clack and the repetitive motion soothing. So rather than aiming for. I need to perform well. I need this to look good and to turn out well. Let me look at the other more kind of qualitative experiences that come with knitting, besides, like a perfectly fitting sweater.
Gerald Reid 53:13
Yeah, that's great example, and it's it speaks a lot to being present and how important that is. And when I'm supervising students in the program, in the counseling psych program at BU, I kind of this is something I learned about myself over the years of being a therapist, and I explained this to them really directly. I said, Look, when I'm doing therapy, I'm really, really, really not being self conscious or thinking about myself at all. I'm completely trying to focus as best as I can on the process of what's happening between us and what that person needs. And there's, there's, there's not like, a monitoring about, like, Well, what about me? Like, what's going on with me? It's very being present as present as I possibly can. And I always feel like, if I'm if I'm doing that as much as I can, that's giving me the best chance to do my best work. And at the end of the day, I think, like, we always have to kind of remind ourselves, like, what's going to give me the best chance? Even with athletes, it's like, you're not going to be perfect at everything, as you said earlier. Ellen, like it's impossible, but what's going to give you the best chance? As Leslie, as Alexis, always says, to show up the way you want to show up that's going to give you the best chance to enjoy it and to do your best, right? And if you're, you know, driven by this fear that it's going to actually get in the way of perhaps just being more present and in the flow of what's happening. And sometimes you just have to be present and in the flow of whatever's happening around you. Yeah. And I think
Ellen Hendriksen 54:38
that can be cultivated too. So an exercise I'll often do with social anxiety clients is okay. Let me back up. So I think, yeah, you called perfectionism the like, the sibling of social anxiety. And there it's because our we think that our social performance has to be perfect. There's all these rules, like, I have to be chill. I have. To not look awkward, I have to not be problematic, et cetera. And we're we work really hard in social anxiety to conceal some aspect of self that we're concerned about. And so what happens is that when we're in a socially anxious moment, we do turn that attention spotlight inward, and we self monitor and check how are things going. Is what I said. Just awkward, is what I'm about to say. Like, does that sound weird? What do I do with my hands, you know, and, and so I'll work with clients, and we'll do this whole exercise where I'll, I'll say, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you a story, and I'll just, I'll talk about, like, what I had for breakfast, or, you know, just some mundane thing, the content doesn't matter. And I'll say to them, okay, I want you to try to replicate a socially anxious moment. I want you to focus your attention inward, like self monitor overthink, you know, how, how am I sitting? How am I coming across? Do I look engaged enough? Etc? Like, really focus inward and and then, you know, I'll tell my little story, and then we'll switch, and I'll tell another story. I'll say, now this time, I want you to focus outward, to like, to focus on connection, basically as a like, the first time that I wanted you to focus on you, you, you. This time, I want you to focus on, on, like, outward, outward, outward. Like, me, me, me, yeah. So, like, Look at my face. Like, listen to the words I'm saying. Like, just Yeah. Like, attend closely. And what always happens is that in the first story, the first minute where they're attending inward, their anxiety goes up, their connection goes down. In the second minute, where they're focusing on like me and my story and listening and looking, their anxiety goes down, their connection goes up. And so I think it, it's a it's a little visceral. And then we'll, then we'll, we'll move on to the next like level, where they tell the story and are either focused on their performance or on connecting and sort of telling the story with the energy of, like, Look at this cool rock I found, you know, as opposed to like, oh, do I sound articulate? Do I sound smart? Like, did I say um, too many times? Anyway, okay, so that was a very long way I was saying that yes, like, the being in the moment and being present can be cultivated, and we can choose to turn that attention spotlight outward at either our work or the moment or the person we're with, as opposed to just focusing on us and thinking, Am I doing this well enough? Am I making the mistake, etc, etc. So I love that it's a skill that can be taught.
Gerald Reid 57:39
That's great. You know, it's interesting that that example, how you said the spotlight inward or outward. There's sports psychology research and literature suggesting that if you focus yourself inward, your performance goes down. If you focus on the target or what you're trying to do outwardly, your focus is outward, away from you and towards your goal of what you're trying to do. You're focused on the task at hand, your performance actually gets better.
Ellen Hendriksen 58:04
That makes intuitive sense. Yeah, absolutely,
Alexis Reid 58:08
yeah. I like to say our attention goes where our focus flows, right? So if we're focused on something, that's where we're headed, right, and it's it's interesting because it's difficult to do, because we can get so stuck in our own heads and it's hard to be present. But you know, Jerry and I presented at you for the sports psychology regional conference there and and so many of the conversations were really beautifully centered around authentically showing up, and this idea of authenticity, and exactly what you were saying was just highlighting that idea of, can we get to a place where we can accept ourselves where we are, and instead of focusing too much inward, can we just be present and focused on the experience that's right in front of us? And when we show up authentically? I think it makes a world of difference,
Ellen Hendriksen 58:54
absolutely. Oh, go ahead. Yeah.
Gerald Reid 58:56
I think this is, this is kind of like a PSA, though, and your book, and just every the way you talk Ellen is just so in line with what I'm about to say. I think people in power, people in leadership positions, people who are influential, I think. And I'm not talking about on social media. I'm talking about like in real life too, especially like when you're with people, when you're like, working with people, interacting as a coach, as a parent, as a team, like anything, even as like in a peer group, if you're like a popular person in school or on a team on a sports scene, right? Your influence is important. And if you can model this type of being, there's nothing more powerful than that, right? If you can help people feel safe, psychologically safe, like feel safe that it's okay to me that is so, so so powerful to begin to think outward, to feel like you can trust it's okay to be doing all these things we're talking about, to look outward, to not be obsessed with this fear of making mistakes in front of people. And I think if you know in small ways, it may not happen societally, but even in small ways, just within the small environments in social. Environments, to be a leader, to lead, to make this part of how you're leading is can make a world of difference. You may even realize it's making a difference until someone says, Hey, thank you for doing that. Or, you know, someone comes up to you, you know, when you hear people actually share sometimes, even as a therapist, I'm like, I can't believe they actually hold on to what we were talking about. They'll come like, oh, remember we talked about that. I'm like, Wow, that feels, like, you know, there's stuff happening, right? And as a leader, sometimes you don't realize all that stuff that's happening, like, like Lex, you always talk about this. There could be a suit in your class that's not saying anything, but they're actually have the most insight. They're the most curious about what you're saying. They just need to feel safe to be able to speak up or to talk to you, maybe in private about it.
Ellen Hendriksen 1:00:39
Yeah, no. And I think that notion of authenticity implies that we show our whole selves, you know, appropriate for the context, certainly like we're not going to let it all hang out like we would at home, that we would like at work or in a professional environment, like so we'll be authentic to the context. But I think it's important to state that you know, authenticity implies also that there are going to be some flaws or some quirks, or some, you know, like, yeah, mistakes that happen. And ironically, I think when we are either brave enough to show that or unselfconscious, you know, enough to to be authentic, including like, yeah, the quirks or whatnot. Then that gives other people permission to to do the same thing and when, when, yeah, when we again, appropriate for the context. Show a little bit of like, Hey, here's some of my mess, or like, here's what's under the rug. Then that makes us come across as not like intimidating, superhuman, unrelatable, but as like a real person, somebody relatable, somebody that we can trust. Because when we show a little bit of what we're struggling with, or problems or quirks, then that sends two messages. It says, it says I trust you, and it says we are the same. So it's, I trust you move my mess and that you're not going to judge or reject me. And also says, like, Okay, I, you know, I struggle, just like every buddy else. And this is like, this is not some kind I don't have all the answers. Like, this is not some kind of teacher student relationship, or, like, mentor mentee relationship. We are equal. And, you know, can be friends or peers or whatnot. And so I think when you speak to being authentic, then being authentic with our Yeah, quirks and warts like to the context with response to the context certainly is really important, because that that's exactly what makes other people feel safe and able to be themselves. And
Gerald Reid 1:02:41
I love how you use the word permission in the book a lot. You know, we need to feel permission to admit that we're not perfect. And even as much as we're modeling it, we can just directly show people that we're going to be okay, we're not going to judge you. And I say this a lot, even to my patients, or I'll be with the patient, be like, What do you think? I'm thinking right now, as you're saying this vulnerable thing to me, I'll literally say in the moment, what are you assuming I'm thinking? And they may say like, I think you're judging me right? Just to get that immediate feedback. So I think being very clear and direct and giving that feedback to people that they can feel safe is really important, and to be clear about that, because those messages are implicit or not so implicit, sometimes it has to be more explicit in terms of how we're sending that message. Yeah, absolutely.
Alexis Reid 1:03:28
I'm so glad you said all this, because especially the last point you just make, because I often work with parents and educators and young people from a developmental perspective, they often only know what they see right in front of them, and they often will share with me, like, Oh, my teacher never makes a mistake, or my parent, like, just does everything. And I I never see them making a mistake. Or when they do, you know, they're really hard on themselves. And I think this is actually a really we are very careful, Ellen of not saying, do these three things and you'll never become a perfectionist. You know, our podcast is not about becoming the best, it's about picking and choosing what's going to be helpful for you. So, you know, I often will tell parents and educators alike and coaches or bosses that, you know, a lot of times we need to be able to when comfortable and appropriate, like you mentioned, share a little bit about where we might have trouble, where things might be tricky. Make a mistake. When I was in the classroom, I used to make mistakes on purpose and have the students catch me, and then I would be like, Oh, I'm so glad you caught that. Let's figure out how to problem solve it together. So you know, I wasn't doing everything perfectly on the board because I wanted them to both see that I can even make a mistake and learn from it, rebound from it, and that they can do the same and help each other in that same way. And just in that interaction, it taught more than me saying, Oh, we can make mistakes. It's okay. You know, thinking about how we can create this environment, and I think your book. I don't know if it was intentional or not. I think it really changes the narrative that societally we have, that we need to always be better, right, that it is okay to sometimes be where you are, and that is okay, like sometimes it's okay to be enough so
Gerald Reid 1:05:17
and to have what you need, right? And I really want to point this out real quick. It's really, really important is, is pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing. I'm about to give a there had the international skating union. There's like, the best skaters in the world. They're performing in Boston, and I'm gonna be in a panel talking about this this next weekend. Is this push, push, push with reality, as you're saying, Lex, if we don't reflect on what our needs are, such a good we're completely missing out on everything else that's important, that's going to sustain us. And what, as you always say, like what we need, Alexis has all these Alexa systems is like, what we need could be a break or or an energy recharge, or we have a confusion about how to learn something. We have to ask for a different way to learn something. I asked, you know, I was asked. I was talking to an athlete. Let me say this again, I don't and I was talking to, I talked to athletes. I say, how do you learn best when your coach just says it to you? And sometimes athletes say, No, you know, when they, when they say to me, it goes in one ear and out the other ear. So, okay, so what you need is different. You don't need to be a perfectionist and try to like, fight through and prove that you know something. Sometimes you just need a different way of representing. And Lexus taught me so much about this in education is that our needs could be different, and that in perfectionistic behaviors can get in the way of acknowledging what our needs are. And our needs could be a lot of things and they there's, it's an infinite amount of things that we can identify what our needs might be in a given context. Yeah,
Ellen Hendriksen 1:06:45
absolutely. I mean, that gets into self compassion, right? Because, like, ultimately, self compassion is like, because in perfectionism or anxiety or whatnot, we often will run away from the perceived flaws or what we think is going to be judged or criticized, but in self compassion, it's turning towards our pain or suffering and state like, Okay, what do I need? And that could be something immediate, that could be something functional, it could be something emotional, yeah, for sure, but it's, asking, you know, what do I need right now, when I was learning about self compassion, I learned the, you know, the kind of the classic, like, Kristin Neff definition of like, it's like talking to yourself like a good friend. And I think it's a great, you know, I respect and appreciate the kind of encapsulation of it, but because of my perfectionistic brain, I took that too literally. And I was like, Okay, well now so I have to, like, spout forth this, you know, like supportive, self compassionate paragraph and and that was too high a bar, and often not what I needed. You know, I didn't need myself to be a hype woman. I needed a nap, or I needed, like, sandwich
Alexis Reid 1:08:01
or something shade would be so proud,
Gerald Reid 1:08:05
yeah?
Ellen Hendriksen 1:08:07
But like, over, I guess, like, as I've learned more and more about self compassion, I've learned that, yeah, it's turning towards your pain and suffering and asking, What do I need, as opposed to only being words and hyping ourselves up. And the thing that I was sort of a light bulb moment for me, is that self compassion can be allowing yourself not to do something. It can be permission. Like the example I like to give is that self compassion might be going to, I don't know, like yoga class, because you know, from experience that that's going to make you feel better, but it could also be permission to skip yoga class, because what you really need is a nap. Yes, yes,
Alexis Reid 1:08:49
for sure, that's the story of my life. Actually love this. So instead of kind of, you know, saying to avoid becoming too perfectionistic. Do these things if you were to share with the audience and the listeners a couple key takeaways of how to maybe be a little bit more self compassionate in in considering, if you were to share a few key takeaways of what you've learned about perfectionism and social anxiety and and how to show up and feel comfortable being enough, what kind of key takeaways or advice might you lend? Yeah,
Ellen Hendriksen 1:09:25
I think the biggest one is to separate a little bit your performance from your character that you know, again, keep shooting for the stars you know. Keep like having high standards. But I think the thing that that I've certainly learned, and that's been most helpful to clients, is learning that our you know, our performance is not a referendum on our character, and that to take the stance of like a skull. After I in a block of marble or a chef, like tasting a dish and asking, Okay, what would make this thing better? What would make this dish better? Like we intuitively know that the sculptor and the sculpture, or the chef and the dish are different things, and so to try to apply that same mindset to ourselves, like we are not our performance, whether that's work, you know, again, our fitness or parenting or social behavior, like whatever, whatever we're counting as performance. And to try to we're not going to separate those completely. You know, of course, please be proud of good work you do. You know, it's okay to be bummed if things don't work out, but to try to separate them a little bit. So that's one. And I think the second is, if we're sort of just wired to be perfectionistic like that, that that's that's important to, I want to say, accept, but like, we can use that actually to our advantage, and say, Well, of course, I'm dissatisfied with whatever I just put out into the world, because, like, that's just how I'm wired. Like, I always think things are, you know, not quite good enough. Or, of course, I'm overthinking that conversation I just had, because, like, that's, that's just what my brain does. And so by allowing that and saying, like, Oh, this is just sort of part of the script. This is how my brain works. We can take the moral judgment out of it and not think, Oh, I'm doing it wrong because I'm overthinking it, or I'm doing it wrong because I'm always a little bit dissatisfied, and just use some acting cognitive diffusion and say, like, oh, okay, that thing my brain does, and to see it almost as a third party, and by allowing it, it it it either the the intensity of the negativity or it diminishes. By allowing it, we have permission, we give it permission. And that, at least, has been really powerful for me. I've said on a number of podcasts that after, you know, kind of anything I do with a with a microphone, or if I put writing out into the world, my brain automatically goes to like, ah, like, Why did I say it that way? Or, like, ah, that could have been better, or I should have been more articulate. But the fact that I now approach it with like, yeah, that's just what happens. Is extremely free.
Gerald Reid 1:12:20
Ellen, can I ask you a question about that? Do you feel like that has correlated with you feeling like you're doing things more intentionally, that you don't look back as much and say, Oh, I could have, could have good or that was, could have been better. Do you feel like that's correlated with you being more intentional? Yeah, and present, intentional present. I
Ellen Hendriksen 1:12:38
definitely, I definitely, take my, um, my inevitable, you know, mistakes, uh, way less personally, like, it's, it's just kind of what happens or intent. Do I do things more intentionally? Yeah, I definitely, I
Gerald Reid 1:12:53
definitely feel like that's happened for me. The more intentional and present I am, like, the less I ruminate afterwards, because I feel like, well, I was, I was as present as I could be, and therefore I feel like that was the best I could have done, because I was being present. And that's fine, you know, yeah,
Ellen Hendriksen 1:13:07
yeah, yeah, yeah, I fulfilled my intention, yes. And so like that, and that's, that's the measure, as opposed to, did people like it or, yeah, how did this come off? Yeah, for sure.
Alexis Reid 1:13:16
And I think sometimes you need to produce for like we have. Who says that was actually way better than you thought it was. You did a great job. So Thanks, Rob. Sometimes we need to check the facts on ourselves too, instead of just thinking
Gerald Reid 1:13:29
for ourselves. Shout out to DBT, really, really, really, really, so appreciative. Ellen, for you to come on and talk to our audience about this. This has been such a fun conversation and such like a natural, awesome conversation. I just had a great time chatting with you about this, and the way you think is so wonderful, and the way that you You're doing such a service for people with the book, and the way you talk about things and and just everything we were so appreciative of. You know, this whole podcast is just to do a service for people. And you clearly, you know your professional life, your your professional journey, is definitely going to make it. Has made an incredible impact. And we, we know this book is going to continue to just soar. It's just so how helpful for people the way it's written, I've
Alexis Reid 1:14:17
already assigned to several clients and families, because it's just, it's so validating, and I think it's a part of all people who care a lot. You know, I help the people I work with who have perfectionistic tendencies and, like, the reason that this is actually getting the way is because you care so much, and that's not a bad thing. We just had to figure out how to work with it. Thank you so much for just bringing it all together in such an accessible way. Thank you
Ellen Hendriksen 1:14:44
for Yeah, thank you for this cool conversation and your kind words you make me blush and yeah, thank you for all you do and trying to get the word out and help so many people. I really appreciate you and all you do
Alexis Reid 1:14:55
onward. Yeah, more work to be done, but grateful. For you know all of the wonderful things that are happening in the world. So thanks for joining us. Thanks Ellen,
Gerald Reid
Thanks for tuning in to the Reid Connect-ED podcast. Please remember that this is a podcast intended to educate and share ideas, but it is not a substitute for professional care that may be beneficial to you at different points of your life. If you are needed support, please contact your primary care physician, local hospital, educational institution, or support staff at your place of employment to seek out referrals for what may be most helpful for you. ideas shared here have been shaped by many years of training, incredible mentors research theory, evidence based practices and our work with individuals over the years, but it's not intended to represent the opinions of those we work with or who we are affiliated with. The reconnected podcast is hosted by siblings Alexis Reid and Dr. Gerald Reid. Original music is written and recorded by Gerald Reid (www.Jerapy.com) recording was done by Cyber Sound Studios. If you want to follow along on this journey with us the Reid Connect-ED podcast. we'll be releasing new episodes every two weeks each season so please subscribe for updates and notifications. Feel free to also follow us on Instagram @ReidConnectEdPodcast that's @ReidconnectEdPodcast and Twitter @ReidconnectEd. We are grateful for you joining us and we look forward to future episodes. In the meanwhile be curious, be open, and be well.
When will it ever be enough? When will I be enough? These are the questions people with perfectionistic tendencies ruminate over, oftentimes without definitive answers. In this incredibly informative and insightful interview, we expand our original episode on perfectionism (S2E3) with a top expert, Dr. Ellen Hendriksen who recently released her second book “How to Be Enough: Self-Acceptance for Self-Critics and Perfectionists.” In this conversation, we discuss the nuances of identifying perfectionistic tendencies, how perfectionism manifests across different contexts, what therapy for perfectionism looks like, and stories that bring this important topic to light. This episode is timely and significant given the immense cultural and technological shifts in society over the past few decades that have pushed people further toward an obsession with optimization and productivity while also grappling with the concept and meaning of self-acceptance. We explore the pros and cons of perfectionism in a nuanced way, which is what we strive to do on this podcast.
Be curious. Be Open. Be well.
The ReidConnect-Ed Podcast is hosted by Siblings Alexis Reid and Dr. Gerald Reid, produced by and original music is written and recorded by www.Jerapy.com
*Please note that different practitioners may have different opinions- this is our perspective and is intended to educate you on what may be possible.
